Real Time Posting

I didn't think it was fun at all. I thought it was really childish. We don't need those kinds of discussions here.

I agree with Mr. Luplow, having real time posting would be pretty neat. I've always thought that some of the moderating has been a little extreme anyway. For example, when I once wrote, "He came out like a bat out of hell...", the "hell" part was scrambled. "Bat out of hell" is a pretty common saying - it's a line that even announcers on TV use.

I enjoyed the Mr. Brooks/Guest exchange about Kaz Matsui. I also participated in a discussion on steroids with Mr. Brooks and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's all in good fun and it's never goes too far, so just like Mr. Luplow said, I think only the posts that go too far or are offensive should be deleted or edited.

As common as such a bat may be, I'll assume that you've either never heard of or considered the impact of the CIPA (Childrens Internet Protection Act) passed by your legistative branch in 2000. While the courts wisely overturned this law in 2002, many public schools and libraries throughout the U.S., not to mention concerned (and lazy) parents, continue to rely on filters that use closed black lists to block "objectionable" sites. How do these filtering companies define "objectionable"? That's a good question considering that even the U.S. Democratic party's web site is blocked for being pornographic and racist.

My concern is getting this site blocked due to "objectionable" words. There exists a list of four letter words that many filters use to automatically label a page, or an entire site, as "objectionable." The problem with most filtering software, though, is that no person comes along and reads the context. The filter makers have to maximize profits. People reviewing content costs a lot. As do algorithms that can parse a "commonly used phrase" and understand grade it as unobjectionable.

Is the desire for a clean "child safe" site being too extreme? That is, when "child safe" is being defined by politicians who know nothing about technology and incompentent programmers looking for a shotcut to just get the job done?

A quick Google to check my facts shows that the Supreme Court upheld the library filtering law in June of 2003. Sad. Very sad.

I guess it all comes down to how one sees this site. My goal is to make this a place where people can learn about Japanese baseball, and to a lesser extent, the culture. Informative and educational are two words that I would like to see used by people describing this site. Knee jerk reactions to posts about things one disagrees with tend to be neither informative nor educational.

Moderation serves a number of purposes:

• Promotes thought - Because one cannot just fire back a quick rebuttle every couple of minutes, it allows time to mill over what was said, what one's reply was, and what might be the other person's reply. There are a number of posts that I allow through which make me rather upset at times. I'll often mill over them for a day or so before writing a reply. If I write something while feeling angry (a knee jerk reaction), it most likely will fail to get across what really needs to be said.


• Promotes consistency - There are a number of words/phrases that can be written a number of ways. "Interleague" and "inter-league" for example. You'll notice that it is consistently written "inter-league" throughout all of the pages here. But those posting use a combination of the two along with various capitalization schemes. Consistency helps subconciously to add credibility.


• Presentation - Most people don't know how to type HTML links, HTML lists, or other formatting tags for their posts. All they need to do to emphisize something is put it in ALL CAPS or with *astrics around it* and I'll convert them to bold type face. Just cut and paste a URL and I'll convert it to a link (often after checking that it is what it says it is). This allows posters to concentrate on the message rather than the format. Also, "l33t" and/or instant messaging speak may be popular with kids, but I see it as a credibility problem. Using proper punctuation and capitalization of proper nouns may be out of style with the current generation, but again, improper use makes the poster look uneducated and effects credibility.


• Helps non-native English speakers - I've mentioned this before, but there are some people who just can't get past the presentation (see above), especially with non-native speakers of English. By cleaning up such posts the content is not lost in delivery. While I feel strongly that it's the content that is most important, presentation plays a very important role in communicating that content. By "translating" such posts to standard English, it puts everyone on equal footing.


• Noise reduction - Moreso than the "my team is better than your team" arguements, I find spam and posts intended to create flame wars (especially racial slurs) to be very annoying. Allowing them to be posted then deleting them does not deter the posters. Never letting anyone other than the moderator see them does. Furthermore, posts that just say "Me, too," while not offensive, don't add to the discussion.

So, do I adhere to all of the above all of the time? Well, would you consider every thread here as being "informative" and/or "educational"? I didn't think so. I consider them more guidelines than laws.

As it stands, there are four major independent English language Pro Yakyu sites that each offer something:

• This site offers a central location to find information on Japanese baseball and discuss it beyond what the "experts" have to say.
• Japan Baseball Daily offers historical stats and some great commentary by Garland-san.
• Borisov's Pro Yakyu has standings, leaders, and links to stories in the English press.
• Japan Ball has Kyodo wire news in English.

What you're suggesting is that a Pro Yakyu chat site is needed. Why not start one? Or your own blog where you allow unlimited anonymous posting? Add the top page to the Links forum. Post a link to News or Open Talk to a blog entry that involves Pro Yakyu and I'm sure that many people, including myself, will have a look. With a large number of free systems out there, there's really no need to change the policy here to have exactly what you want.

To summarize, thanks for the concern, but I don't think of moderation as a burdon.

The CIPA applies to public libraries, where kids were accessing porn on government subsidized Internet lines. So, you are worried that your site will be blocked to US public libraries? Is that where a large part of your audience does their web surfing, a the US public library?

The statement on the Democratic party web site was being blocked at libraries for being racist or whatever is news to me. I'll have to investigate this claim the next time I go to the library to access porn. Anyway, your bias is showing through again. (i.e. "your courts," etc.). My use of "your boy" started a heated debate. But I digress and ceratianly don't want to create "childish" debate. (And who is the arbiteur of childishness, then?)

I suppose you could produce or acquire a simple algorithm that would block a post based on a list of offensive words, which would avoid problems getting your site blocked.

If you really want to promote thought and avoid knee jerk responses, please consider giving a writer the ability to modify their post after you've cleared it or after it's been sent. The current set up does not achieve your puported objectives of encouraging thought, consistency, or presentation. Anyone can flame a response irrevocably. It just takes a while for it to be seen by others, after it passes your personal test. This format has nothing, in reality, to do with thought, it is all about control and appearance.

Anyway, it was just a suggestion. If the monitoring is not a burden and as you seem to enjoy the control you have over your site, then there is nothing wrong with the status quo.

I give you credit for coming up with thought provoking rebuttles. Are you a lawer by any chance? Or a public relations consultant? I ask because your posts, combined with Kenny's, resemble a patern I've seen a lot from Microsoft and SCO web PR personnel since Microsoft first decided to kill off Netscape back in 1996. The only thing I don't understand is motive for trying to discredit me and that site.

Anyway, the general attack vector goes something like this:

1. Fill a forum up with a great deal of unreasonable noise.
2. When something gets deleted or cut, complain loudly about the lack of free speech.
3. When things are at their most sensitive levels, write something that is fairly reasonable, but will surely be removed or edited.
4. Appeal to others that what was removed or edited is fairly reasonable.
5. Call the moderator a Nazi. (No, you didn't go that far, but others have in the past.)
6. When the moderator attempts to explain things, show the flaws in his/her explanation while ignoring anything that sounds reasonable. This is effective because people will only see flaws and forget anything reasonable.
7. Never defend anything said. By focusing on the moderator's flaws, any arguement agaist the attacker is quickly forgotten as not even needing to be defended.
8. Conclude by throwing one's hands in the air as a sign of surrender to the evil moderator. This gives air to being the victim.

Obviously, you're not doing all of the above. But the pattern looks very close. But again, I don't understand what motive you would have to discredit my work.

Anyway, despite it not being in my best interest from a PR perspective to further explain things, I feel that openness is the best policy (to which I'm sure there are plenty of counter examples - I'm not perfect), so I will address the points you brought up. I hope that you will be kind enough to explain why starting your own Pro Yakyu Free Speech blog is not a reasonable solution to this matter.

The CIPA started out being for both public libararies and public schools that get federal money. I admit that I don't know if public schools were dropped from the bill. I'm fairly sure that schools were part of it in 2002 when a group of three judges found the bill unconstitutional.

My statement about the Democratic party's web site is also circa 2002. This was one of the biggest arguements made in the trial at the time, so it was an easy example about how flawed the filtering systems were that were being put into place.

As for black-listing words with a filter, that's proposing a technical solution for a social problem. The current method of moderation may not be as efficient, but it works. There is no logic to it, it's just personal taste.

I don't understand your arguement about how moderation fails to promote thought, consistency, and presentation. I confess, I allow thoughtless posts through. I am inconsistent at times. And I'll even screw up the presentation from time to time (and fix it when I or someone else catches it). The only thing I can think of is that you wished to make me out as a control freak by downplaying those qualities. Well, I'm a computer programmer, of course I'm a control freak! Why do you think that so many root passwords on computers throughout the world are "god"?

Actually, it's more than that. All posts to this site, by logged in users or guests, reflect on me. When a flame war does break out, I get e-mails from the regulars asking me to end it. When this site is referenced by Robert Whiting or MLB scouts, it's me that they ask for confirmation about certain topics. And I can't begin to tell you how many times someone has posted something starting off like "I agree with westbaystars' idea that ..." when it wasn't me who came up with the idea. (Naturally, I quickly correct the matter.)

I don't wish to take credit for other peoples' ideas. But this site is an extension of myself. It's something that I've created (with the help of many others) to give the world a better understanding of baseball in Japan. There are many things here that I'd rather not be associated with at all, but I do my best to be accomidating if I think that there's any chance that something good might come out of a post. And, hey, I'm wrong sometimes. I make mistakes. I am human with my own biases.

Garland-san of Japanese Baseball Daily used to be a regular contriubtor here, long before the current forum system was installed, and long before moderation. He felt that he could do more by moving to the Baseball Guru site. He's produced a great deal of invaluable work on Japanese baseball at the two sites, and I'm happy to send interested fans his way.

If this site is too constricting for you, you're welcome to start your own site, and I'd be more than glad to send people your way when you're setup. You've got a great sense of sarcastic humor that I'm sure many would enjoy. Find a nitch and start writing.

More on the appeals process of the United States v.s. American Library Association can be read here [PDF file].

Many Internet filters are in place in public schools these days in the United States. My high school introduced them in the 10th grade, which was during the 2002-03 school year. I'm pretty sure my school was subject to the CIPA because I went to a public school all my life.

As for moderation, I don't see it as detering creativity and informative posting. Without moderation I think the board would be more subject to spam and flames which reflects bad on the sites like other forums that discuss major league baseball, something of which I have seen little of since I've been visiting here. Moderation reduces noise caused by troublesome people, while it still keeps an open dialogue, open for discussion on Japanese baseball not available anywhere, except on Japanese language web sites, mainly Yahoo! Japan.

I think I agree that moderation is more of a good thing than a bad thing.

Dear Mr. Westbay,

I do not mean to offend you. I now understand the degree of pride you have in this site and why you might take sacrastic or irreverent comments personally. You shouldn't, but to each his own.

I am not a lawyer, marketing head, MSFT goon, or any other technogeek looking to make trouble for you on the technical or legal side. I have used a few aliases, including Guest. I am not Kenny. But I liked The Duke. I am just a baseball fan with an interest in the NPB game. My interest is derived from seeing a few games, seeing players who might one day move to MLB and vis-a-versa, and maybe have an inter-cultural exchange on the baseball I love.

I find some posters here narrow-minded at times and I let them have it. And vis-a-versa. Just my style. Yes, not very Japanese. In my way, I am trying to open eyes and thought to another prospective. That's all. I may do it in a distasteful way to some. Sorry for that, but everyone is different in their approach. That doesn't mean what they say doesn't have meaning.

You have a very fine site Mr. Westbay. My suggestion on moderation was just to make things a bit more flexible and to facilitate dialog. I don't feel victimized if you wish to maintain the staus quo.

So in closing, I enjoy your site, the insights of posters, and even the occassional fray. I have no nefarious plans other than to call it the way I see it - to keep it real. I did not suggest eliminating moderation, just a way to have less stifled comunication. However, it is your call entirely.

I actually enjoy sarcasm and irony very much. It's irreverent [adj. showing a lack of respect for people or things that are generally taken seriously] comments that create a hostile environment and cause communication to break down. This isn't about "to each his own." It's about civilty and respect, something greatly lacking on most forums on the Internet.

You really are a work of art. And a career as a lawer, paid shill (technical analyst), or web PR (astroturfer) could really work out well for you. I mean that in the best way possible. Really. You're a natural with the above attack recipe, especially starting from #6. You casually brush everything aside as a misunderstanding without explaining anything. But I still don't understand how I misinterpretted this paragraph:

[...] The current set up does not achieve your puported objectives of encouraging thought, consistency, or presentation. Anyone can flame a response irrevocably. It just takes a while for it to be seen by others, after it passes your personal test. This format has nothing, in reality, to do with thought, it is all about control and appearance.

You state that there is a problem, i.e. that the current system doesn't meet my objectives. Then you go on the attack, and it's hard not to read this as an attack, making me out to be some sort of power-monger. I am still unclear as to the motivation for this attack on my character. Are you even aware that you're attacking?

But don't worry about it. As I've said before, I also liked the Duke who had a very similar approach to you. What he, and I think you also, didn't/don't realize is that most people don't understand the rules of engagement that you two work under: mainly numbers 6 and 7 above, with a few other corollaries that I didn't mention. You see other posters as narrow-minded. I think they're just confused by the attacks, reduced to repeating the same arguements because they think you two didn't read them the first time (a consequence of the above tactics). They simply don't know how to respond properly to these kinds of attacks. The two of you know how to use words like surgeons, cutting just where you want them to. Most people don't know how to rephrase their thoughts to make them more clear (I'll only go so far editing), which is often irrelevant since the two of you would just brush anything reasonable sounding that conflicts with what you want to get across aside.

You, and the Duke, have a great deal of talent with words. It just seems to me that there are better uses for that talent than "lively" conversations that end up insulting people who may never attempt to post on a public forum again.

Rather than fanning the flames in a "my team is better than your team" debate, prove to me that Watanabe-Executive Director (I think that's his new title) has the competence necessary to lead NPB down his road for the next few years. Convince me that extending the foreign player limits would be a good thing for NPB (please be familiar with what happened in CPBL in that regard). Tell me why Japan should participate in the World Baseball Classic.

The above are just a few topics that will give you plenty of controversy and heated debate, which, if I'm not mistaken, is what you're after by proposing real time posting. Of course, if you don't feel strongly about the above topics, I'm sure there is some other important topic that you can better spend your time on.

I'm afraid that most people aren't going to understand or appriciate the education that you're trying to give them with your current approach. While I agree with much of what you say, some things just strike me as being down right rude and unnecessary. Educate us about what's right and wrong on the field and in the back offices. I think everyone will understand and appriciate that.

Your comments are noted. I have not been referred to as a work of art in quite a long time. I do take that as a compliment.

From what you say, perhaps I ought to write Karl Rove and ask to be his protege. He uses the same tactics. That gives me reason for pause. Excuse me while I gag.

I think you are a bit too sensitive, but I understand as you put a lot of yourself into this website. You should be proud of it. I understand that the irreverent comments are taken as a personal insult as a result. The issue of control is an effort to present a professional and dignified appearance to protect the integrity of the site as a useful source. Fair enough. Again, my apologies as this was not my intent.

I may see some posters as narrow minded. That is my perogative. Perception is reality, just as you find some of my comments rude. In going over some of The Duke's posts, they certainly were pointed, but there were some valid points made. I noted that after he left, you referred to his actions as "he did his damage." My view is that you may not have liked the message or the delivery, but to refer to those comments as "damage" seems a bit extreme and narrow. Disagreement does not necesarily have to be rude, and certainly there are more civil means of delivery, just as it is civil to accept (though not agreeing with) strong divergent views. But The Duke's comments were harsh and not appreciated. Respect goes both ways.

Anyway, I'll stick with sarcasm and irony and leave the irreverence stateside. I will challenge and probe, as well as adding my two cents, in a more genteel and respectful way. I certainly do not wish any of the harsh comments to reflect on you and will govern myself accodingly. I hope some will be more open to dissent if it is presented in such a different way.

Please no! Don't do away with the moderation! It's no accident that this site is frequented by baseball opinion heavyweights, sometimes even players and their families, as well as researchers looking for citable sources.

I have to agree with torakichi. I actually appreciate the moderation the most during the type of exchanges we had on the Kaz Vacation thread. I also find the reasons that Westbaystars gives for moderation quite acceptable.

One place I would not mind real time posting is during a game. A couple days ago during game 1 of the Tigers/Dragons series a few of us made comments while the game was in progress and that was quite fun. A real time gameday thread would also be a great way for people who are watching games on TV clarify certain plays for those following online. So any takers for creating that kind of forum? If you ever read "U.S.S. Mariner" that would be a good template to start with. And if you, Westbaystars, had any intrest in trying this, you could do it on a trial basis and/or delete the whole thread after the game was over.

This reminds me, I have the Chat Box installed, but no chat rooms open. Well, there's one open now.

I used this software last season for doing my Game of the Week play-by-plays. I've moved to doing audio this year, and haven't really paid much attention to the Chat Box, mainly because it's not integrated into the rest of the system (sign-in is different). Well, maybe it's time to integrate it.

I've opened up a chat room for game chatter. Yes, real-time game posting. Perhaps this will help the torakichi join one another and hash things out. History is currently set to 60 entries long. I don't plan on saving the transcripts for the time being, either, so I hope that if anything really interesting comes out of a chat that someone manages to post it to a forum for all to share later.

Thank you Great Oni-san for hitting all the keywords to make me remember the Chat Box. I think that this will be a great way to take care of the need for immediate feedback and conversation - especially for those watching games live to share the experience.

Please open another administrative thread if there are problems with the chat, if there needs to be more rooms, etc.

I visit sometimes and don't mind the heated discussions. The lag makes for stilted discussion, nor is there a way to edit your post.

The pre-screening and the explanation is pretty sad.

As a regular poster I am very much against real time posting and welcome the moderation. People when removed from a face to face situation (telephone or written) often forget manners and politeness. It is much nicer to discuss things without this problem and it actually makes the discussion more like real speech. Michael has on occaision not posted something I have written and on reflection it is because I have not been polite or temperate enough. I accept this because I would like people to be polite to me - in which case I should reciprocate.

Michael does a fantastic job and I would suggest you visit other message boards which are unregulated and take a look at the invective and insulting posts that are posted. We should be able to carry out a discussion in a calm civilized manner, and Michael ensures that this is the case.